Autor Tópico: Brazilian shot dead by London police  (Lida 6238 vezes)

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Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 12:43:22 »
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, a Brazilian citizen, was on his way to his job as an electrician in London on Friday morning. An elite armed squad of plain-clothes policemen thought he looked "suspicious". They followed him as he boarded a London Transport bus and went into the Stockwell subway station. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy padded coat when the police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground, and shot him five times in the head and torso at point blank range in front of horrified passengers.

For more than 24 hours London police gave no explanation for this shooting, other than to say that Mr. Menezes had "failed to obey police instructions", and to put forward the lie that he was connected in some way to their investigation into the recent transport suicide bombings. On Saturday they admitted that Mr. Menezes had no connection to the bombing investigation. On Sunday they apologized, but said they would continue with their shoot-first-ask-questions-later policy.

What do Brazilians, and in particular Brazilian skeptics think about this?

P.S.: His name is also stated in some sources as  João Alves Menezes. I apologize if I got it wrong.
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Offline Rodion

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #1 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 12:55:05 »
his name was joão alves menezes, but he was called jean charles de menezes by his english friends. so you got it right.
well, as i said in another topic... it's sad, but he was in the crossfire.
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #2 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 15:32:01 »
Unfortunately, mistakes like this one are frequent, 'cause cops are not all-knowing people. They can fail, as everybody. About the shoot-first, ask-later policy... IT'S A WAR AGAINST THE TERROR!

This time it was a brazilian, tomorrow may be a russian, the day after tomorrow an english...

PS: "João Carlos" = "Jean Charles" 'cause:

In French, "João" = "Jean".

In English, "Carlos" = "Charles".

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #3 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 17:09:10 »
Well, Galileo, unfortunatly we're used to scenes of policial violence and abuse of authority inside Brazil and bad news such as this do not surprise us.
I agree that he was in the crossfire, but seems to me that those policemen were so underprepared to deal with that kind of situation that they simply coudn't think twice before killing an inocent man.
Was that necessary? Absolutely no! He was pinned to the ground, there were several cops there, he was already under control. Even if Menezes was really a terrorist, cops still must had respected his right of a fair judgement insetead of suddently murder.
I believe the color of his skin has much to do with his fate. He looked like an Arabian, and you know Arabiac people are suffering prejudice in West countries because of the actions of some terrorist groups.
I believe this policy of shooting-first-asking-questions-later will only victim more unguilt people. Of corce police is trying to protect citizens, but who's going to protect citizens of police?
Politicians tell you that terrorists will win this war only if they manage to change people's lifestyle. Apparentely the Government itself is in charge of destroying this very lifestyle it intends to save.

Offline Stéfano

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #4 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 18:34:22 »
Do you remember this movie ?

"Alternative and mainstream Medicine are not simply different methods of treating ilness. They are basically incompatible views of reality and how the material world works." Arnold S. Relman

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #5 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 18:40:50 »
I've never watched that movie. What is it about?

Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #6 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 19:19:42 »
I haven't seen it either, but I understand it was about the infamous "Guildford Four" case, where four men went to prison because of a wrongful conviction for being Irish Republican Army bombers.
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Offline Stéfano

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #7 Online: 24 de Julho de 2005, 19:24:55 »
"An extremely powerful film that tells you a lot about not only this specific event - the wrongful imprisonment of the 'Guildford Four' - but the nature of police corruption. The police here are, I think, not necessarily shown to be evil for their framing of the Conlons. They were under enormous public and political pressure to find and bring to justice the perpetrators, at a time when anti-terrorist sentiment was running high in England. False information from a spiteful associate of the Conlons resulted in their arrest, and the intentional disregard of an alibi by police eventually cost them their freedom. Their imprisonment can never be justified, but it can certainly be explained."
"Alternative and mainstream Medicine are not simply different methods of treating ilness. They are basically incompatible views of reality and how the material world works." Arnold S. Relman

Offline n/a

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #8 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 09:39:46 »
Brazilian TV says, now, that he ran away the police because he was illegal in UK, and had fear of  beeing deported.

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #9 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 12:34:29 »
Citação de: Ricardo M
Brazilian TV says, now, that he ran away the police because he was illegal in UK, and had fear of  beeing deported.


If it's true, the shooting was justified 8-) ... nowadays, with the smell of terrorism in the air, police just can't grab a runaway man, because a terrorist may explode bombs tied to his body when such a thing happens.

So, the police was right in shooting him and, in my opinion, his family should get no money from UK, even because, by the dead's own will, he could not officially be where he was. :roll:

To be very honest to everybody here... I LIKED IT. That's a good lesson for all those who insist in ilegal immigration! People who run away from cops should really be shooted! 8-)

Offline Rodion

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #10 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 15:56:06 »
don't need to be so harsh point.  :o
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #11 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 20:53:38 »
Citação de: Poindexter
People who run away from cops should really be shooted! 8-)
If he had run faster, he might be alive today. And if he had stopped, would they have shot him anyway?

From The Telegraph:

Citar
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in a London Tube station on Friday appears to have been in Britain legally, Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said last night.

Mr Straw's remarks, made alongside his Brazilian counterpart, Celso Amorim, added to a confused picture over Jean Charles de Menezes's visa status.
   
They followed reports that Mr de Menezes may have run from plain-clothed officers because he feared that he was wanted for immigration irregularities.

A Home Office spokesman last night admitted that it had not yet identified his immigration status: "We are looking into the case and will provide more information as soon as we are able to do so.''

"The Foreign Secretary has emphasised that the status of Mr de Menezes is an issue for the Home Office."
 
Mr Straw said: "I don't have any precise information about his immigration status here. My understanding is that he was here lawfully."
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Offline Stéfano

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #12 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 23:02:19 »
In this evening news, they said his immigrations status was legal and that he was shot eight times, seven of those in the head.
"Alternative and mainstream Medicine are not simply different methods of treating ilness. They are basically incompatible views of reality and how the material world works." Arnold S. Relman

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #13 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 23:27:01 »
Citação de: Stéfano
In this evening news, they said his immigrations status was legal and that he was shot eight times, seven of those in the head.


OK, but... why was he running away?

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #14 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 23:43:42 »
Poindexter, the according to witnesses the man was lying on the ground when police murdered him. It means cops actually reached him and took him down. He was already imobilised, there was no reason for shoting.

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #15 Online: 25 de Julho de 2005, 23:51:50 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Poindexter, the according to witnesses the man was lying on the ground when police murdered him. It means cops actually reached him and took him down. He was already imobilised, there was no reason for shoting.


 :oops:

Sorry...

I forgot this information, that came on the news posted by Galileo...

Now, I have no other choice than start pending to the "they should have not shooted" side...

Anyway, one question remais: why the hell was he running away from the cops?

Offline Rodion

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #16 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 14:03:19 »
if he was a terrorist, he could blow himself up, kill the cops and the people around. i'm not saying he should be shot, but that i understand why they did it.
besides, i think the london police is not used to make use of firearms. they don't have the know how. so, understandable to be so desperate and shoot the man 8 times.
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Offline Buckaroo Banzai

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #17 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 16:22:17 »
They may not be used to use it in field, but they can fire very well. 7 of the 8 shots were in the head, as I saw in the news last night.

I don't understand why make such a big deal of this, like people carrying brazilian flaggs on London streets, just because he was brazilian. It's not like if there was any anti-brazilianism, seems that could be anyone in his place, but just happened to be a brazilian.

Unless... perhaps it has something to do with soccer...

Offline Buckaroo Banzai

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #18 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 16:31:43 »
Citação de: Gabriel
Was that necessary? Absolutely no! He was pinned to the ground, there were several cops there, he was already under control. Even if Menezes was really a terrorist, cops still must had respected his right of a fair judgement insetead of suddently murder.

Maybe I'm watching too many movies, but I think it's not hard to someone tie a considerably destructive bomb in his own body in a way that it's not evident and also make a trigger that could be pushed with ease, like moving a finger.

Offline n/a

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #19 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 17:16:54 »
Every day so many inocent brazilians die because of the violence in our country, and we don't talk to much about it, if a man is killed in poor brazilian streets, no TV news says anything. It's normal. Just brazilians can kill brazilians?

I'm not trying to say that UK's police made right, but I can't understand all this revolt in Brazil because of Jean Charles. Every day many fathers and mothers cry with their son killed with a lost bullet, we have a bigger problem here, in our cities.

They will not born Jean again, they will be processed, what else can be done? The family will receive money, I don't see what public parades of protest want now.

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #20 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 17:31:44 »
Soon I'll give my explanation. It envolves Media and the brazilian inferiority complex.

Offline Rodion

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #21 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 17:49:13 »
Citação de: Ricardo M

They will not born Jean again, they will be processed, what else can be done? The family will receive money, I don't see what public parades of protest want now.


not processed, but sued  :)

anyway, i agree. there's not much point in walking around with brazilian flags and protesting in the streets. the police already gave their apologies, what else do we need?
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Offline n/a

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #22 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 17:51:59 »
oh, I and my bad english...  :oops:

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #23 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 19:03:47 »
I think police's policy has to change. The guy could have bombs tied to his body, but apparentely cops outnumbered him. He should be imobilised in order to be analised.

Offline Stéfano

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #24 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 22:54:15 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Poindexter, the according to witnesses the man was lying on the ground when police murdered him. It means cops actually reached him and took him down. He was already imobilised, there was no reason for shoting.

... or the english cops are so good that were able to shoot him in the head seven times while he was running...  :shock:
"Alternative and mainstream Medicine are not simply different methods of treating ilness. They are basically incompatible views of reality and how the material world works." Arnold S. Relman

 

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