Autor Tópico: Brazilian shot dead by London police  (Lida 6452 vezes)

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Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #25 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 23:28:37 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
I think police's policy has to change. The guy could have bombs tied to his body, but apparentely cops outnumbered him. He should be imobilised in order to be analised.


I only agree that he sould not be shooted because he was already grabbed by the cops, but I think it would be perfectly OK if they didn't have the courage to do it and shot him.

Offline Galileo

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #26 Online: 26 de Julho de 2005, 23:46:34 »
Citação de: Danniel
They may not be used to use it in field, but they can fire very well. 7 of the 8 shots were in the head, as I saw in the news last night.
The police are not such good shots, Danniel. All 8 shots were fired execution-style, at "point blank" range, as the man was immobilized on the ground.

------------------
I don't think it's important why he ran away. There is much speculation, but we will never know for sure. And like I said above, if he had run faster, he might still be alive. Maybe running away very fast is the only way to escape being executed on the spot if the police think you are a bomber.

What we do know is that the police were wearing civilian (plain) clothes, not uniforms, and none of the many witnesses who were interviewed by the press said they heard the police identify themselves before they subdued the man.

Anyway, Britain has abolished capital punishment even for people convicted of the worst crimes by a judge and jury. Why would death be the appropriate penalty for the relatively minor offence of running from the police, and without the benefit of a trial?

Maybe things are different in Brazil. Maybe people expect the Brazilian police to shoot them in the head if they don't do what they are told. But in London, until last Friday, that was not what a reasonable person would expect.

The London police say they will continue with their shoot-to-kill policy.

If I were a suicide bomber, I would rig the explosives with a dead-switch, so that if I were killed by a bullet, the bomb would explode. Maybe that would make the police change their policy.
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #27 Online: 27 de Julho de 2005, 00:24:50 »
Now, the explanation:

Chapter I: The Media

All the comments, complaints and the march are only happening due to a decision done jointly by the british and brazilian medias, both deciding to give full coverage to the case.

This means that, if this death just received the average treatment done to similar cases, there could be a normal trial, indemnization to his family and so on, but not the "media show" over it, and the march.

Why the Media decided this way? Because what the news channels just want to talk about is... TERRORISM! Just because of that.


Chapter II: The Brazilian Inferiority Complex (Average Brazilian Behavior Lesson to Galileo)

The average brazilian (AB) has an inferiority complex. This complex come from the not wealthy status of the country and from the strong belief, or a strange necessity to believe, that life is unfair for him and that his situation is due to prejudice he suffers (for being black, or being poor, or being handicapped... or, in a global basis... for being brazilian!).

As a result, in order to not get killed by this complex, the AB tries to "compensate" it by two ways.

The first one is called SOCCER (tipical thinking of the AB: "We don't live well but at soccer nobody beats us").

The second one is trying to appear or to see other brazilians appearing in the International Media, as a way to think: "Hey! We exist! We are important, too!".

Appearing in a good manner? Not necessarily! It can be in a "good" situation (like Winning World Cups or Carnival Coverage) or in bad ones, provided that the brazilian is said to be suffering some kind of prejudice ("That's why we are not developed! We have nothing to do with it! It's because we suffer prejudice! See? The english cops killed a brazilian!", they think).

About watching other brazilians, our TV Channels are constantly trying to find a brazilian, for more difficult it can be in some occasions, to show to the audience. Sentences like: "You see, the sister-in-law of the cousin of the mother-in-law of this actress that is winning the Best-Actress-in a Role Oscar is brazilian" are, unfortunately, VERY COMMONLY repeatedly every year in the brazilian Oscar coverage.

In this context, it's strange to say but, in a situation like this one of the death of Jean, even though people is sad about him, there is a hidden pride of Brazil being remembered, being on the top of the news for some time... See Blair talking about a brazilian? PRICELESS, then! ("Brazil exists, and we are suffering prejudice!", they think).

Finally, about appearing... well... for the smallest oportunity groups of ABs have to give a message that they suffer prejudice or that they exist... THEY WILL DO IT.

So, since this case got notorious, the "smallest oportunity" stage was OK. "If we make a march to the Scotland Yard, it will go on TV", is the idea. Let's simply complain about the way he was killed, ask for different procedures and/or ask for trials against the London Police Dept? Of course not! We must cover ourselves with brazilian flags and sing the hymn (the same hymn the AB DOESN'T KNOW OR BARELY KNOWS), because we will appear! We will exist as brazilians! We will... EXIST!

And, the "best"... we will appear as... VICTIMS OF PREJUDICE! "Good", isn't it?

Other oportunities to appear as brazilians come in sports events... even our soccer players, already known in the whole world and supposedly used to the Sports Media, can't resist insisting on non-verbally stating they are brazilian and that "Brazil exists" by dancing a shameful dance we have called "samba" during the prize ceremony, just after the final match, in front of soccer autorities... they can't just smile, kiss people, cry and celebrate in the hotel... they NEED to state, as if there was a single soul in the stadium or in front of the TV sets world who didn't know already, that they are brazilians...


Chapter III: The Anti-Cops and Anti-Resolution of the Problems Brazilian Culture

The brazilian culture is against any efficient way to solve of any problem, included the one of criminality.

Because of this tradition, the maximum possible sentence in Brazil is the one of 30 years (we don't have prison for life here... if someone kills 15 little girls... the maximum punishment this person can have  is... 30 years) and whoever goes to prision or commits a crime is, even before being caught or even recognized, is generically seen as "a good person suffering prejudice from the SYSTEM" and... automatically... is WELL SEEN by the ABs! If the criminal is seen crying at the Media, "OH!"... with a little luck, the ABs wants him free right away!

An example of this behaviour is the Ronald Biggs' one... he was one of those who did assault the cash train in London and injured the train driver for life and got to Brazil, living in Rio de Janeiro City... and he was HONORED in our Carnival!

So, as the "other side" of Jean's death are COPS, more reason then to the ABs complain in the streets!

Offline uiliníli

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #28 Online: 27 de Julho de 2005, 13:40:42 »
Citação de: Galileo
What we do know is that the police were wearing civilian (plain) clothes, not uniforms, and none of the many witnesses who were interviewed by the press said they heard the police identify themselves before they subdued the man.


This fact is extremely important to make an opinion.

Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #29 Online: 27 de Julho de 2005, 17:47:06 »
Poindexter, your description of Brazilians is interesting. I actually see in your description many similarities to my own country, and I suspect that Brazilians are probably not too different from many other nationalities. Except, of course, that they can play damn fine futebol!

 :brasil:

The maximum penalty in Canada, by the way, is "life imprisonment without eligibility for parole for 25 years." That means you could in theory be released after 25 years if you could convince the authorities that you have been rehabilitated and will not offend again. In practice, that rarely happens.
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Offline Südenbauer

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #30 Online: 27 de Julho de 2005, 18:50:28 »
:lol:

Offline Buckaroo Banzai

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #31 Online: 28 de Julho de 2005, 14:52:02 »
Citação de: Galileo
Citação de: Danniel
They may not be used to use it in field, but they can fire very well. 7 of the 8 shots were in the head, as I saw in the news last night.
The police are not such good shots, Danniel. All 8 shots were fired execution-style, at "point blank" range, as the man was immobilized on the ground.

Yep, I've seen that as I followed the topic, but I forgot to edit

Citar
If I were a suicide bomber, I would rig the explosives with a dead-switch, so that if I were killed by a bullet, the bomb would explode. Maybe that would make the police change their policy.

Please, don't spread the idea...

 :shock:

Citar
I think police's policy has to change. The guy could have bombs tied to his body, but apparentely cops outnumbered him. He should be imobilised in order to be analised.

Later that day, I saw an interview in Jô Soares (in my mind I said that with english accent, :lol: ), and someone (the guy being interviwed) said that's fairly comon in some places to suicide bombers explode after they're immobilised by the cops.

But as Galileo noted, I don't know if killinng him after he's immobilised would surely prevent that, as it's not hard to make a trigger that is activated when the suicide bomber dies. I think that they probably already do that... crazy people.......  :(

Offline Buckaroo Banzai

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #32 Online: 28 de Julho de 2005, 15:12:48 »
Citação de: Poindexter
Now, the explanation:
[...]

Somethings to add:

We also claim that the inventor of the airplane is brazilian, eventually even that the watch was invented by him, when it was invented for him, by a french fellow, if I recall;

We are also somehow proud of having hot women over here, as if it was some sort of achievement;

We also like to brag that we are friendly and warm people whereas people in other countries, specially USA are all cold and arrogant.

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #33 Online: 28 de Julho de 2005, 15:14:04 »
Note for Galileo: Jô Soares is our David Letterman, or Jay Leno...

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #34 Online: 28 de Julho de 2005, 16:34:52 »
The Great Britain Justice Ministry released this thursday noon a bulletin on which it doesn't recognizes the visa on Jean's passport, which would give him permanent residence in the country.

Source (in portuguese): http://noticias.terra.com.br/mundo/atentadoemlondres/interna/0,,OI608501-EI5255,00.html

Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #35 Online: 28 de Julho de 2005, 19:27:50 »
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/07/27/2003265261

--------------
And another story:

"...his cousin told a press conference yesterday that senior officers at Scotland Yard had now retracted their claims that Mr de Menezes was acting suspiciously, so that officers had no option but to open fire.

"Vivien Figueiredo, 22, said police told her that he was wearing a lightweight denim jacket and not a bulky coat that could have hidden an explosive belt underneath. They had also admitted that he used his travelcard to gain access to the station. Ms Figueiredo said: 'They are saying he did absolutely nothing wrong when he was killed, so why don’t they say all this publicly?'

Police shot the electrician seven times in the head and once in the shoulder at point-blank range. The family claims that Mr Menezes’s death forced Scotland Yard to change its shoot-to-kill orders. In yesterday’s arrest in Birmingham, the family pointed out that police used a Taser stun gun. Speaking shortly before leaving for Brazil to take Mr Menezes's body home for burial, they said that they wanted to know why a similar weapon was not used last Friday.

Ms Figueiredo also expressed anger at reports that one of the officers involved in the fatal shooting had gone on holiday with his family, paid for by the Metropolitan Police. She said: "It is not right that this person should now be enjoying his holiday when we are suffering."

Source
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Poindexter

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #36 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:25:33 »
As an illegal, even though the cops should not shoot him, I think UK doesn't need to apologize or pay any indemnization to his family, since, by Jean's own will, he was not officially where he was.

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #37 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:37:21 »
Giving an indemnization or not, if Galieleo's last story is right the murderers should be charged as normal criminals.

Offline Rodion

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #38 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:43:33 »
hm. to see if they should be charged as normal criminals or not, we must see if they acted for themselves or were following orders from above. maybe they got direct orders: "shoot to kill".
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #39 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:44:59 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Giving an indemnization or not, if Galieleo's last story is right the murderers should be charged as normal criminals.


Criminals? Why? Who did they shot? Jean? No! Jean didn't have a legit visa to be in UK! Officially, he was not in UK! So the cops shot... the floor!

Offline Rodion

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #40 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:48:08 »
Citação de: Poindexter
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Giving an indemnization or not, if Galieleo's last story is right the murderers should be charged as normal criminals.


Criminals? Why? Who did they shot? Jean? No! Jean doesn't have visa to be in UK! Officially, he was not in UK! So the cops shot... the floor!


it makes no difference whether he was a legal uk citizen or not, unless if we're trying to understand why did he run. he could be a north corean ilegally living in london, the uk police still couldn't should him for being illegal.
he was no citizen but was a human being! i can only justify the actions of the london police having the fight against terror in my mind. but arguing he deserved to be shot for being illegal... please, eh?
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #41 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 00:54:21 »
Citação de: bruno

it makes no difference whether he was a legal uk citizen or not, unless if we're trying to understand why did he run. he could be a north corean ilegally living in london, the uk police still couldn't should him for being illegal.
he was no citizen but was a human being! i can only justify the actions of the london police having the fight against terror in my mind. but arguing he deserved to be shot for being illegal... please, eh?


I see things on te following way: the cops shot Jean, and they shouldn't have done that, but, FIRST OF ALL, Jean should not be there.

So, if FIRST OF ALL Jean should not be there, the cops can't be found guilty for what happened. In my opinion, when someone decides to live illegally in a country, this person is assuming the responsability for anything that can happen to him/her.

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #42 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 01:02:50 »
Anyway, death penalty is a little too much for being illegal in a coutry. A penalty must be proportional to the agression. Or should I kill if you step in my foot?

Poindexter

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #43 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 01:10:09 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Anyway, death penalty is a little too much for being illegal in a coutry. A penalty must be proportional to the agression. Or should I kill if you step in my foot?


Of course I think death penalty is too much for just being illegal, and the cops did not "judge" him for being illegal, but an illegal, in my opinion, is assuming the risks of anything that can happen to him.

An illegal has resigned from being a citizen, has resigned having rights!

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #44 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 01:15:11 »
That´s not true. An illegal is a criminal and still has the right of a fair trail. Everybody is innocent before declared guilty in court after his situation is analysed by a judge.

Offline Buckaroo Banzai

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #45 Online: 29 de Julho de 2005, 09:57:34 »
Despite of being illegal or not, I think that from the point that the police is already identified as being police, and say to someone to "freeze", but they don't, they should be authorized to shot, not necessarily aiming to kill.

Which has little to do with this case, anyway, as the police were not identified and the guy were not treated as acting like suspicious in an nonspecific way, but as a potential menace.

Offline Galileo

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Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #46 Online: 31 de Julho de 2005, 14:47:10 »
It emerged yesterday that the Met's guidelines for confronting bombers allow armed police, in some cases, to fire a "critical headshot" without even challenging the individual to stop, if it is feared an explosion is imminent.

Until now, it has been assumed that suspects would be given a chance to surrender.

Source
"Galileo was more perceptive than his prosecutors" - Pope John Paul II, 1992

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #47 Online: 31 de Julho de 2005, 15:01:02 »
Who´s going to protect us from police?

Offline Rodion

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Re: Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #48 Online: 31 de Julho de 2005, 15:12:26 »
Citação de: Gabriel dCF
Who´s going to protect us from police?


hm. they're desperate to contain the terrorism. not even in the us the terrorists have acomplished such a great feat; they've reached their objectives, i guess.
"Notai, vós homens de ação orgulhosos, não sois senão os instrumentos inconscientes dos homens de pensamento, que na quietude humilde traçaram freqüentemente vossos planos de ação mais definidos." heinrich heine

Offline uiliníli

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Re.: Brazilian shot dead by London police
« Resposta #49 Online: 31 de Julho de 2005, 15:16:33 »
That´s right. Terrorists are winning the war.

 

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