Tópico: A Nasa ou (outra agência espacial) divulgaria uma descoberta de ETs rapidamente?

[Rhyan]

Estou lendo o excelente livro Extraterrestres do jornalista de ciências, Salvador Nogueira, que tem o blog Mensageiro Sideral na Folha.com.

Neste livro, ele comenta rapidamente que uma descoberta de vida extraterrestre, seja no Sistema Solar ou em exoplanetas, seria muito analisada para confirmações e possivelmente a Nasa (ou outra agência) prepararia o público para tal notícia.

Eu sempre argumentei que a ciência trabalha com transparência e notícias rápidas quando me dizem que "a Nasa esconde ETs". Principalmente para atrair maiores orçamentos governamentais.

Mesmo sendo situações bem diferentes:
Vocês acham que faz sentido o que o Salvador Nogueira disse?

A previsão da Nasa é que em 15 ou 20 anos já teremos encontrados provas de ETs, nem que sejam bactérias.

[Pedro Reis]

Estou lendo o excelente livro Extraterrestres do jornalista de ciências, Salvador Nogueira, que tem o blog Mensageiro Sideral na Folha.com.

Neste livro, ele comenta rapidamente que uma descoberta de vida extraterrestre, seja no Sistema Solar ou em exoplanetas, seria muito analisada para confirmações e possivelmente a Nasa (ou outra agência) prepararia o público para tal notícia.

Eu sempre argumentei que a ciência trabalha com transparência e notícias rápidas quando me dizem que "a Nasa esconde ETs". Principalmente para atrair maiores orçamentos governamentais.

Mesmo sendo situações bem diferentes:
Vocês acham que faz sentido o que o Salvador Nogueira disse?

A previsão da Nasa é que em 15 ou 20 anos já teremos encontrados provas de ETs, nem que sejam bactérias.

Em 1996. o Dr. David Mackey, da Nasa, acreditou ter encontrado evidências de bactérias fossilizadas em um meteorito marciano. Ainda neste 1996 esta notícia foi divulgada em todo o mundo.

[Pedro Reis]

Especulações semelhantes foram feitas sobre um meteorito encontrado em 2000, o Yamato 000593.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_000593

Mas o mundo só ficou sabendo em 2014, justamente quando a pedra foi analisada por uma equipe de pesquisadores da NASA.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

E quanto ao sinal "uau"/"wow", de 1977?

Em quanto tempo foi noticiado?

[Brienne of Tarth]

Eu nem sabia disso, Ned, quero dizer, Buck.
Pesquisando, vi que se passaram dias até que a sequência fosse notada, e ainda não vi nenhuma informação dizendo que houve divulgação do fato fora do meio científico.

O pior que o sinal jamais se repetiu novamente.

Mas eu sei o que foi que aconteceu: a nave mãe avisando que veio buscar o Elvis...

[Gigaview]

Talvez "wow" tenha explicação análoga, mas nunca saberemos.

Mystery of the 'alien' signals solved: Baffled astronomers trace source of noise to the observatory's kitchen MICROWAVE


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3037684/Mystery-alien-signals-solved-Baffled-astronomers-trace-source-noise-observatory-s-kitchen-MICROWAVE.html#ixzz3YBTy7RZq

[Rhyan]

Pedro, o primeiro é esse aqui? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Hills_84001

Essa do microondas foi foda...

[Terráqueo]

Penso que há uma certa paranoia em algumas pessoas, quando se fala em ETs, mas não vejo nenhuma razão concreta para que alguma agência espacial esconderia a descoberta de seres assim no Sistema Solar. Pois deverá ser de grande prestígio para tal agência.
Isso me lembrou até daquele filme, Apollo 18, o qual, infelizmente, assisti. Perdi vários minutos de minha vida, não recomendo para ninguém.

Um detalhe, na verdade, o sinal "wow" fui eu, Terráqueo, aprontando das minhas.

[Brienne of Tarth]

Talvez "wow" tenha explicação análoga, mas nunca saberemos.

Mystery of the 'alien' signals solved: Baffled astronomers trace source of noise to the observatory's kitchen MICROWAVE

Armaria, nunca mais vou abrir aporta do microondas antes do "plim!"
Vai que o povo do MIB bate lá em casa achando que estou escondendo alienígenas infratores!!!!

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Eu não sei, acho que poderia bem haver uma demora razoável para se divulgar uma descoberta dessas, bem maior do que para coisas menos extraordinárias.

Tanto por certificação de não estarem falando besteira, ou sendo tapeados, quanto por terem que pensar em possíveis problemas sociais dependendo de como isso for anunciado.

Deve ser meio inevitável uma explosão de cultos new-age, com sorte, inofensivos.

[Terráqueo]

Eu não sei, acho que poderia bem haver uma demora razoável para se divulgar uma descoberta dessas, bem maior do que para coisas menos extraordinárias.

Tanto por certificação de não estarem falando besteira, ou sendo tapeados, quanto por terem que pensar em possíveis problemas sociais dependendo de como isso for anunciado.

De fato, caro colega forista, poderia ser uma vergonha fazer um anúncio com "NÓS ENCONTRAMOS VIDA EXTRATERRESTRE!" para no fim das contas ser só um engano.

Deve ser meio inevitável uma explosão de cultos new-age, com sorte, inofensivos.

O que seriam esses "cultos new-age"?

[Terráqueo]

Senhoras e senhores, perguntei para duas pessoas sobre o que seria o sinal "wow" e obtive estas respostas:

Giorgio Tsoukalos


E Sigmund Freud

[Brienne of Tarth]

 

[_Juca_]

Estou lendo o excelente livro Extraterrestres do jornalista de ciências, Salvador Nogueira, que tem o blog Mensageiro Sideral na Folha.com.

Neste livro, ele comenta rapidamente que uma descoberta de vida extraterrestre, seja no Sistema Solar ou em exoplanetas, seria muito analisada para confirmações e possivelmente a Nasa (ou outra agência) prepararia o público para tal notícia.

Eu sempre argumentei que a ciência trabalha com transparência e notícias rápidas quando me dizem que "a Nasa esconde ETs". Principalmente para atrair maiores orçamentos governamentais.

Mesmo sendo situações bem diferentes:
Vocês acham que faz sentido o que o Salvador Nogueira disse?

A previsão da Nasa é que em 15 ou 20 anos já teremos encontrados provas de ETs, nem que sejam bactérias.

Eu acho que seria o contrário, divulgar um achado desses teria o efeito multiplicador de dinheiro para eles, não tem porque esconder desse ponto de vista.

[DDV]

Eu acho que a tendência seria mais de eles divulgarem até coisas que não têm certeza do que de esconderem.

Essa história de esconder ETs, fenômenos sobrenaturais e etc é um argumento narrativo obrigatório em histórias sobre coisas misteriosas e em teorias de conspiração. É o único modo de justificar a ausência do fenômeno alegado na experiência do público.

Nos evangelhos da Bíblia, é dito que Jesus mandava os beneficiários de suas curas milagrosas ficarem quietos. Talvez isso tenha o mesmo objetivo (justificar o fato da maioria das pessoas não ouvirem falar ou presenciarem milagres de Cristo).

[Terráqueo]

Eu acho que a tendência seria mais de eles divulgarem até coisas que não têm certeza do que de esconderem.

Essa história de esconder ETs, fenômenos sobrenaturais e etc é um argumento narrativo obrigatório em histórias sobre coisas misteriosas e em teorias de conspiração. É o único modo de justificar a ausência do fenômeno alegado na experiência do público.

Nos evangelhos da Bíblia, é dito que Jesus mandava os beneficiários de suas curas milagrosas ficarem quietos. Talvez isso tenha o mesmo objetivo (justificar o fato da maioria das pessoas não ouvirem falar ou presenciarem milagres de Cristo).

Pode até ser, mas é possível que fiquem com um pé atrás, para o caso de ser alarme falso.
Com exceção talvez seria encontrar em Titã seres unicelulares com uma membrana plasmática, material genético, etc. com constituição diferente dos seres vivos da Terra.

[Rhyan]

Eu não digo esconder, mas ser muito cuidadoso e dar as informações aos poucos.

[Buckaroo Banzai]

Acho que no mínimo seriam cautelosos em colocar as coisas como "aparente/possível" detecção de extraterrestres, que "se for um trote, é um trote muito bem feito".

Acho que anunciar isso e depois ser comprovado que uns caras de alguma faculdade de engenharia tapearam a NASA, bem provavelmente teria um impacto considerável nas verbas no futuro próximo. "A gente paga os impostos para esses idiotas brincarem de procurar homenzinhos verdes e depois serem tapeados por uns estudantes fanfarrões? E quanto ao medicare? E a guerra? E o certificado de nascimento do Obama???///"

[Pedro Reis]

Pedro, o primeiro é esse aqui? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Hills_84001

Essa do microondas foi foda...

Esse!

Pelo menos nesse caso não houve preocupação em esconder.

Me lembro de ter visto uma entrevista desse cara - David Mckay - e ele dizia que alguma pessoas o aconselharam a não publicar o artigo na Science. Mas não no sentido de que algo assim não deveria ser revelado, mas porque alguns acreditavam que seria cientificamente controverso e portanto ele deveria ser mais cuidadoso.

O estudo demorou 2 anos e quando acreditaram estar suficientemente embasados enviaram o artigo para publicação. Dias antes a NASA fez um comunicado a imprensa.

Reproduzido abaixo:

Donald L. Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC         August 7, 1996
(Phone:  202/358-1727)

James Hartsfield
Johnson Space Center, Houston, TX
(Phone:  713/483-5111)

David Salisbury
Stanford University, Palo Alto, CA
(Phone:  415/723-2558)

RELEASE:  96-160

METEORITE YIELDS EVIDENCE OF PRIMITIVE LIFE ON EARLY MARS

       A NASA research team of scientists at the Johnson Space
Center (JSC), Houston, TX, and at Stanford University, Palo
Alto, CA, has found evidence that strongly suggests primitive
life may have existed on Mars more than 3.6 billion years ago.

       The NASA-funded team found the first organic molecules
thought to be of Martian origin; several mineral features
characteristic of biological activity; and possible
microscopic fossils of primitive, bacteria-like organisms
inside of an ancient Martian rock that fell to Earth as a
meteorite.  This array of indirect evidence of past life will
be reported in the August 16 issue of the journal Science,
presenting the investigation to the scientific community at
large for further study.

       The two-year investigation was co-led by JSC planetary
scientists Dr. David McKay, Dr. Everett Gibson and Kathie
Thomas-Keprta of Lockheed-Martin, with the major collaboration
of a Stanford team headed by Professor of Chemistry Dr.
Richard Zare, as well as six other NASA and university
research partners.

        "There is not any one finding that leads us to believe
that this is evidence of  past life on Mars.  Rather, it is a
combination of many things that we have found," McKay said.
"They include Stanford's detection of an apparently unique
pattern of organic molecules, carbon compounds that are the
basis of life.  We also found several unusual mineral phases
that are known products of primitive microscopic organisms on
Earth.  Structures that could be microsopic fossils seem to
support all of this.  The relationship of all of these things
in terms of location - within a few hundred thousandths of an
inch of one another - is the most compelling evidence."

       "It is very difficult to prove life existed 3.6 billion
years ago on Earth, let alone on Mars," Zare said.  "The
existing standard of proof, which we think we have met,
includes having an accurately dated sample that contains
native microfossils, mineralogical features characteristic of
life, and evidence of complex organic chemistry."

       "For two years, we have applied state-of-the-art
technology to perform these analyses, and we believe we have
found quite reasonable evidence of past life on Mars," Gibson
added.  "We don't claim that we have conclusively proven it. 
We are putting this evidence out to the scientific community
for other investigators to verify, enhance, attack -- disprove
if they can -- as part of the scientific process.  Then,
within a year or two, we hope to resolve the question one way
or the other."

       "What we have found to be the most reasonable
interpretation is of such radical nature that it will only be
accepted or rejected after other groups either confirm our
findings or overturn them," McKay added.

       The igneous rock in the 4.2-pound, potato-sized
meteorite has been age-dated to about 4.5 billion years, the
period when the planet Mars formed.  The rock is believed to
have originated underneath the Martian surface and to have
been extensively fractured by impacts as meteorites bombarded
the planets in the early inner solar system.  Between 3.6
billion and 4 billion years ago, a time when it is generally
thought that the planet was warmer and wetter, water is
believed to have penetrated fractures in the subsurface rock,
possibly forming an underground water system.

       Since the water was saturated with carbon dioxide from
the Martian atmosphere, carbonate minerals were deposited in
the fractures.  The team's findings indicate living organisms
also may have assisted in the formation of the carbonate, and
some remains of the microscopic organisms may have become
fossilized, in a fashion similar to the formation of fossils
in limestone on Earth.  Then, 16 million years ago, a huge
comet or asteroid struck Mars, ejecting a piece of the rock
from its subsurface location with enough force to escape the
planet.  For millions of years, the chunk of rock floated
through space.  It encountered Earth's atmosphere 13,000 years
ago and fell in Antarctica as a meteorite.

       It is in the tiny globs of carbonate that the
researchers found a number of features that can be interpreted
as suggesting past life.  Stanford researchers found easily
detectable amounts of organic molecules called polycyclic
aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) concentrated in the vicinity of
the carbonate.  Researchers at JSC found mineral compounds
commonly associated with microscopic organisms and the
possible microscopic fossil structures.

       The largest of the possible fossils are less than 1/100
the diameter of a human hair, and most are about 1/1000 the
diameter of a human hair - small enough that it would take
about a thousand laid end-to-end to span the dot at the end of
this sentence.  Some are egg-shaped while others are tubular. 
In appearance and size, the structures are strikingly similar
to microscopic fossils of the tiniest bacteria found on Earth.

       The meteorite, called ALH84001, was found in 1984 in
Allan Hills ice field, Antarctica, by an annual expedition of
the National Science Foundation's Antarctic Meteorite Program. 
It was preserved for study in JSC's Meteorite Processing
Laboratory and its possible Martian origin was not recognized
until 1993.  It is one of only 12 meteorites identified so far
that match the unique Martian chemistry measured by the Viking
spacecraft that landed on Mars in 1976.  ALH84001 is by far
the oldest of the 12 Martian meteorites, more than three times
as old as any other.

       Many of the team's findings were made possible only
because of very recent technological advances in high-
resolution scanning electron microscopy and laser mass
spectrometry.  Only a few years ago, many of the features that
they report were undetectable.  Although past studies of this
meteorite and others of Martian origin failed to detect
evidence of past life, they were generally performed using
lower levels of magnification, without the benefit of the
technology used in this research.  The recent discovery of
extremely small bacteria on Earth, called nanobacteria,
prompted the team to perform this work at a much finer scale
than past efforts.

       The nine authors of the Science report include McKay,
Gibson and Thomas-Keprta of JSC; Christopher Romanek, formerly
a National Research Council post-doctoral fellow at JSC who is
now a staff scientist at the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory
at the University of Georgia; Hojatollah Vali, a National
Research Council post-doctoral fellow at JSC and a staff
scientist at McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada; and
Zare, graduate students Simon J. Clemett and Claude R.
Maechling and post-doctoral student Xavier Chillier of the
Stanford University Department of Chemistry.

       The team of researchers includes a wide variety of 
expertise, including microbiology, mineralogy, analytical
techniques, geochemistry and organic chemistry, and the
analysis crossed all of these disciplines.  Further details on
the findings presented in the Science article include:
 
*    Researchers at Stanford University used a dual laser mass
spectrometer -- the most sensitive instrument of its type in
the world -- to look for the presence of the common family of
organic molecules called PAHs.  When microorganisms die, the
complex organic molecules that they contain frequently degrade
into PAHs.  PAHs are often associated with ancient sedimentary
rocks, coals and petroleum on Earth and can be common air
pollutants.  Not only did the scientists find PAHs in easily
detectable amounts

    in ALH84001, but they found that these molecules were
concentrated in the vicinity of the carbonate globules.  This
finding appears consistent with the proposition that they are
a result of the fossilization process.  In addition, the
unique composition of the meteorite's PAHs is consistent with
what the scientists expect from the fossilization of very
primitive microorganisms.  On Earth, PAHs virtually always
occur in thousands of forms, but, in the meteorite, they are
dominated by only about a half-dozen different compounds.  The
simplicity of this mixture, combined with the lack of light-
weight PAHs like napthalene, also differs substantially from
that of PAHs previously measured in non-Martian meteorites.

*    The team found unusual compounds -- iron sulfides and
magnetite -- that can be produced by anaerobic bacteria and
other microscopic organisms on Earth.  The compounds were
found in locations directly associated with the fossil-like
structures and carbonate globules in the meteorite.  Extreme
conditions -- conditions very unlikely to have been
encountered by the meteorite -- would have been required to
produce these compounds in close proximity to one another if
life were not involved.  The carbonate also contained tiny
grains of magnetite that are almost identical to magnetic
fossil remnants often left by certain bacteria found on Earth. 
Other minerals commonly associated with biological activity on
Earth were found in the carbonate as well.

*    The formation of the carbonate or fossils by living
organisms while the meteorite was in the Antarctic was deemed
unlikely for several reasons.  The carbonate was age dated
using a parent-daughter isotope method and found to be 3.6
billion years old, and the organic molecules were first
detected well within the ancient carbonate.  In addition, the
team analyzed representative samples of other meteorites from
Antarctica and found no evidence of fossil-like structures,
organic molecules or possible biologically produced compounds
and minerals similar to those in the ALH84001 meteorite.  The
composition and location of PAHs organic molecules found in
the meteorite also appeared to confirm that the possible
evidence of life was extraterrestrial.  No PAHs were found in
the meteorite's exterior crust, but the concentration of PAHs
increased in the meteorite's interior to levels higher than
ever found in Antarctica.  Higher concentrations of PAHs would
have likely been found on the exterior of the meteorite,
decreasing toward the interior, if the organic molecules are
the result of contamination of the meteorite on Earth.

     Additional information may be obtained at 1 p.m. EDT via
the Internet at

             http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/pao/flash/

                            -end-

EDIT: Dias antes da publicação, na verdade. Não do envio do artigo.

[Pedro Reis]

O curioso é que, no mesmo dia, a Casa Branca também enviou um comunicado a imprensa.

THE WHITE HOUSE

Office of the Press Secretary

For Immediate Release August 7, 1996
                       REMARKS BY THE PRESIDENT
                            UPON DEPARTURE
                                   
                            The South Lawn
1:15 P.M. EDT

THE PRESIDENT: Good afternoon. I'm glad to be joined by my science and technology adviser, Dr. Jack Gibbons, to make a few comments about today's announcement by NASA.

This is the product of years of exploration and months of intensive study by some of the world's most distinguished scientists. Like all discoveries, this one will and should continue to be reviewed, examined and scrutinized. It must be confirmed by other scientists. But clearly, the fact that something of this magnitude is being explored is another vindication of America's space program and our continuing support for it, even in these tough financial times. I am determined that the American space program will put it's full intellectual power and technological prowess behind the search for further evidence of life on Mars.

First, I have asked Administrator Goldin to ensure that this finding is subject to a methodical process of further peer review and validation. Second, I have asked the Vice President to convene at the White House before the end of the year a bipartisan space summit on the future of America's space program. A significant purpose of this summit will be to discuss how America should pursue answers to the scientific questions raised by this finding. Third, we are committed to the aggressive plan we have put in place for robotic exploration of Mars. America's next unmanned mission to Mars is scheduled to lift off from the Kennedy Space Center in November. It will be followed by a second mission in December. I should tell you that the first mission is scheduled to land on Mars on July the 4th, 1997 -- Independence Day.

It is well worth contemplating how we reached this moment of discovery. More than 4 billion years ago this piece of rock was formed as a part of the original crust of Mars. After billions of years it broke from the surface and began a 16 million year journey through space that would end here on Earth. It arrived in a meteor shower 13,000 years ago. And in 1984 an American scientist on an annual U.S. government mission to search for meteors on Antarctica picked it up and took it to be studied. Appropriately, it was the first rock to be picked up that year -- rock number 84001.

Today, rock 84001 speaks to us across all those billions of years and millions of miles. It speaks of the possibility of life. If this discovery is confirmed, it will surely be one of the most stunning insights into our universe that science has ever uncovered. Its implications are as far-reaching and awe-inspiring as can be imagined. Even as it promises answers to some of our oldest questions, it poses still others even more fundamental.

We will continue to listen closely to what it has to say as we continue the search for answers and for knowledge that is as old as humanity itself but essential to our people's future.

Thank you.

Q Mr. President, Republicans right now are going through a wrenching abortion debate. At the same time, pro-choice advocates have created the pro-choice public education project, they're calling it. They say abortion rights are under a very grave danger. Would you agree with that assessment? And what do you think of the Republican's troubles?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, they are only under grave danger if the election results in a change in the occupant of the White House. But what I think about the -- I'd like to just compare it with what we did in the Democratic Party. Some of our pro-life members asked for a conscience clause in the Democratic platform. And I thought it was a good idea. I recommended it. The platform committee unanimously embraced it. And the Democratic Party was proud to do it. We believe this is a matter which should be left to private conscience. And we believe that people who have pro-life convictions should be respected.

What you see here in the Republican Party is more of the extremism that we saw manifested in their budget proposals, their environmental proposals, their opposition to sensible crime proposals in the previous two years. And it's lamentable. It's not good for the country. And I would just say that in this convention season, we would welcome thoughtful, moderate, concerned Republicans, independents, to join our party this year and to help keep moving America forward and bringing America together.

Q You do not feel the rights are under grave danger at this point?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, right now we have a Supreme Court decision and an administration committed to the pro-choice position and committing to doing whatever we can to keep the government out of that decision, but to take initiatives that would reduce the number of abortions in America, including the recent tax credit for adoption that we strongly supported that will be part of minimum wage bill when it comes to me for signature.

So I'm determined to protect those rights and to keep the government out of it. But it is fair to say that in this election that is one of the matters at issue. Yes, it is fair to say that.

Thank you.

Q Where did you get that tie?

THE PRESIDENT: It's an Olympic tie. I got it down at the Olympics. Do you want to trade? (Laughter.) Thanks.

THE PRESS: Thank you.

END 1:20 P.M. EDT

Parece que deram importância a essa possível descoberta.