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O Islam representa ou deseja afetar a civilização ocidental?

Não, o Islam é uma religião de paz.
Sim, como todas as religiões.
Nenhuma religião pode representar um risco à civilização
Muito mais que outras religiões. A radicalização de um percentual relevante de muçulmanos espalhados pelo mundo cria literalmente dezenas de milhões de radicais que na melhor das hipóteses, serão apenas massa de manobra
O problema é político não religioso.
Mesmo tendo o apoio dos islâmicos mais abastados, a radicalização é fruto da pobreza e da exploração que os países muçulmanos sofrem há uma centena de anos
Sim. No Islam política e religião se confundem. Tentar separar uma da outra no caso do Islam é apenas diversionismo sem cunho prático.

Autor Tópico: Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado  (Lida 23452 vezes)

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Offline Sergiomgbr

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #250 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 13:55:10 »
PQP pesquisa ruim. Números são raros e blabla

- Apenas 1/4 dos países muçulmanos são "democracias"
- Muitas (sim muitos sem números exatos PQP) alegadas democracias na verdade tem eleições onde o candidato de sempre ganha com mais de 90%
- A maioria (sem números de novo) dos países muçulmanos controlam ou limitam severamente partidos de oposição e ONGs, eles tem também o poder de dissolver, banir e impedir acesso aos meios de comunicação.

30 reais para ler isso.. vamos continuando.



Estou surpreendendo alguém até agora??
A mim, por estar "chutando cachorro morto"(por favor, não chutem cachorros vivos, não maltratem os animais) e ainda por ter pago pela leitura.

Mais pra frente vamos ver se o cachorro está morto mesmo, ou se sua avaliação é que está doente.  :ok:
Acho que se ele der sinais de vida podem engessá-lo todo, com certeza deve tá com todos os ossinhos do corpo quebrados, porque haja pancada!

Acho que estamos falando de cachorros distintos. Eu do real e você do imaginário. Porque o cachorro que eu vejo está muito bem de saúde.
Pra mim você entrou de gaiato nessa e agora não tem mais rumo da situação. Pronto, falei.
Até onde eu sei eu não sei.

Offline Pasteur

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #251 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 13:58:58 »
PQP pesquisa ruim. Números são raros e blabla

- Apenas 1/4 dos países muçulmanos são "democracias"
- Muitas (sim muitos sem números exatos PQP) alegadas democracias na verdade tem eleições onde o candidato de sempre ganha com mais de 90%
- A maioria (sem números de novo) dos países muçulmanos controlam ou limitam severamente partidos de oposição e ONGs, eles tem também o poder de dissolver, banir e impedir acesso aos meios de comunicação.

30 reais para ler isso.. vamos continuando.



Estou surpreendendo alguém até agora??
A mim, por estar "chutando cachorro morto"(por favor, não chutem cachorros vivos, não maltratem os animais) e ainda por ter pago pela leitura.

Mais pra frente vamos ver se o cachorro está morto mesmo, ou se sua avaliação é que está doente.  :ok:
Acho que se ele der sinais de vida podem engessá-lo todo, com certeza deve tá com todos os ossinhos do corpo quebrados, porque haja pancada!

Acho que estamos falando de cachorros distintos. Eu do real e você do imaginário. Porque o cachorro que eu vejo está muito bem de saúde.
Pra mim você entrou de gaiato nessa e agora não tem mais rumo da situação. Pronto, falei.

Pode falar à vontade. A realidade está aí para ser analisada, não irá fugir. Se você tirar a lente da fantasia, irá enxergar.

Offline Sergiomgbr

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #252 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 14:04:23 »
PQP pesquisa ruim. Números são raros e blabla

- Apenas 1/4 dos países muçulmanos são "democracias"
- Muitas (sim muitos sem números exatos PQP) alegadas democracias na verdade tem eleições onde o candidato de sempre ganha com mais de 90%
- A maioria (sem números de novo) dos países muçulmanos controlam ou limitam severamente partidos de oposição e ONGs, eles tem também o poder de dissolver, banir e impedir acesso aos meios de comunicação.

30 reais para ler isso.. vamos continuando.



Estou surpreendendo alguém até agora??
A mim, por estar "chutando cachorro morto"(por favor, não chutem cachorros vivos, não maltratem os animais) e ainda por ter pago pela leitura.

Mais pra frente vamos ver se o cachorro está morto mesmo, ou se sua avaliação é que está doente.  :ok:
Acho que se ele der sinais de vida podem engessá-lo todo, com certeza deve tá com todos os ossinhos do corpo quebrados, porque haja pancada!

Acho que estamos falando de cachorros distintos. Eu do real e você do imaginário. Porque o cachorro que eu vejo está muito bem de saúde.
Pra mim você entrou de gaiato nessa e agora não tem mais rumo da situação. Pronto, falei.

Pode falar à vontade. A realidade está aí para ser analisada, não irá fugir. Se você tirar a lente da fantasia, irá enxergar.
Espera ai que agora eu tô coçando o zuvido com uma caneta...ohhhhhhh que bãooooooooooooo!
Até onde eu sei eu não sei.

Offline Moro

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Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #253 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 21:30:26 »
Within the last several years, religious parties in the Arab world have decisively defeated their secular opponents, as Islamist lamist candidates have proved successful at the polls. In Iraq's general elections in late 2005, the religious Shiite alliance won 128 of 275 seats.34 In the Palestinian territories' first elections in a decade, Hamas overwhelmingly defeated the secular ruling party, Fatah. In Egypt, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood won an unprecedented one-fifth of parliament's seats. In Turkey, the Justice and Development Party (AKP) won a landslide victory in the November 2002 parliamentary elections - something of a rarity in the secular republic. The AKP won a majority in parliament, 363 seats, which was just four short of the plurality ity needed to rewrite the constitution drawn up by the secular vanguard army generals after the coup in 1980.35 Islamists performed formed strongly in Saudi Arabia's 2005 polls, with moderate Islamists winning all the seats on the municipal councils in the cities of Mecca and Medina.36 However, the situation has recently changed. Post 9/11, rulers ers from Egypt to Uzbekistan are using the threat of al-Qaeda and global terrorism to brand any and all opposition as extremist, ist, to control elections, and to legitimize their authoritarian governments. For example, although Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak promised to repeal Egypt's infamous emergency laws when he ran for re-election in Egypt's first-ever contested presidential idential election in 2005, he reneged on the promise because of "security" concerns. Egyptians must remember that they live in an inflamed region, said Mubarak. "We have to appreciate that Egypt, from time to time, is targeted."37 The emergency laws, which have been in place since Mubarak came to power in 1981, allow arbitrary arrests and detentions.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #254 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 21:34:38 »
A Washington Post/ABC News poll in 2006 found that nearly half of Americans - 46% - have a negative view of Islam, seven percentage points higher than observed a few months after Sept. 11, 2001.38 According to the poll, the proportion of Americans who believe that Islam helps stoke violence against non-Muslims has more than doubled since the 9/11 attacks, from 14% in January 2002 to 33%. Similarly, a Pew Research Center survey found that about a third of Americans (36%) say Islam is more likely than other religions to encourage violence among its followers.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #255 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 21:45:42 »
Citar
In contrast, the majority in the Muslim world see Islam through different eyes - as a moderate, peaceful religion that is central to their self-understanding and their success. As we saw in the last chapter, overwhelming numbers of Muslims continue to identify religion as a primary marker of their identity, a source of guidance and strength, and crucial to their progress.

Esse parágrafo é interessante.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #256 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 22:12:01 »
Citar
With the exception of Kazakhstan, zakhstan, majorities of those surveyed in Gallup Polls of countries with substantial Muslim populations (as high as 98% in Egypt, 96% in Indonesia, and 86% in Turkey) say that religion ligion is an important part of their daily lives. This compares with 68% of respondents in the United States and only 28% of respondents in the United Kingdom for whom religion is an important part of their daily lives.

Onde há números, esses são semelhantes aos da PEW. Aliás advinha quem a Gallup cita em alguns assuntos Pasteur?  A PEW.

“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #257 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 22:19:13 »
Cutting across diverse Muslim countries, social classes, and gender differences, answers to our questions reveal a complex and surprising reality. Substantial majorities in nearly all nations tions surveyed (95% in Burkina Faso, 94% in Egypt, 93% in Iran, and 90% in Indonesia) say that if drafting a constitution for a new country, they would guarantee freedom of speech, defined as "allowing all citizens to express their opinion on the political, social, and economic issues of the day." However, while acknowledging and admiring many aspects of Western democracy, those surveyed do not favor wholesale adoption of Western models of democracy. Many appear to want their own democratic model that incorporates Sharia - and not one that is simply dependent on Western values. Actually, ally, few respondents associate "adopting Western values" with Muslim political and economic progress. Abuses in the name of Sharia have not led to wholesale rejection of it.

“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #258 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 22:23:37 »
In only a few countries did a majority say that Sharia should have no role in society; yet in most countries, only a minority want Sharia as "the only source" of law. In Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh, majorities want Sharia as the "only source" of legislation. ■ Most surprising is the absence of systemic differences in many countries between males and females in their support for Sharia as the only source of legislation. For example, in Jordan, 54% of men and 55% of women want Sharia as the only source of legislation. In Egypt, the percentages are 70% of men and 62% of women; in Iran, 12% of men and 14% of women; and in Indonesia, 14% of men and 14% of women.

E aqui a famosa comparação com os EUA.

Ironically, we don't have to look far from home to find a significant number of people who want religion as a source of law. In the United States, a 2006 Gallup Poll indicates that a majority of Americans want the Bible as a source of legislation.al ■ Forty-six percent of Americans say that the Bible should be "a" source, and 9% believe it should be the "only" source of legislation. ■ Perhaps even more surprising, 42% of Americans want religious leaders to have a direct role in writing a constitution, stitution, while 55% want them to play no role at all. These numbers are almost identical to those in Iran.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline DDV

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #259 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 22:24:27 »
Tem como transferir essas postagens para os tópicos apropriados?  :?
Não acredite em quem lhe disser que a verdade não existe.

"O maior vício do capitalismo é a distribuição desigual das benesses. A maior virtude do socialismo é a distribuição igual da miséria." (W. Churchill)

Offline Moro

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Re:Re:Estado Islâmico
« Resposta #260 Online: 13 de Março de 2015, 22:28:28 »
Um dos muitos pontos que a PEW foi superior,  além da metodologia,  riqueza de informações e atualidade,  foi identificar claramente critérios que poderiam identificar o radicalismo. Por exemplo, eles estudam o apoio ao hudud (penas violentas ou assassinatos contra apóstatas,  gays,  adúlteras etc..)  e o Gallup sequer cita o hudud.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Pasteur

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #261 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 13:43:25 »
Bom, já terminei de ler o livro "Who Speaks For Islam" que usa dados da pesquisa do Gallup feita em 2001 até 2007 entrevistando 50000 pessoas em 35 países, inclusive Brasil, Uruguai, Índia, China, Emirados Árabes (estes três últimos a PEW nem entrevistou) e está na hora de rebater algumas ideias furadas do Bahadur.

Os dados da PEW são reais , inclusive o livro até usa algumas pesquisas PEW, só que a metodologia Gallup é melhor e não há má intenção como o da PEW achar que quem apoia o hudud é candidato a terrorista. O Gallup não cita o hudud porque este faz parte da Sharia (não tem nada a ver apoio hudud com apoio a terroristas).

Quanto o Bahadur cita especialistas ele se esqueceu dos autores desse livro...

A principal ideia do livro é classificar os que apoiaram o ataque de 11/09 de radicais, aqueles que dão campo fértil aos terroristas e de onde se originam. E eles, pasmem, são MENOS religiosos que os moderados e sua motivação é POLÍTICA e admiram mais o Ocidente que os moderados. Isso significa que o grande vilão não é a religião e sim a política. Nada a ver com reinterpretar o Islã...aliás reinterpretar é o que os terroristas fazem.

Mais tarde comento mais.

Offline Pasteur

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #262 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 20:57:30 »
De acordo com o livro, a única coisa que o Ocidente pode fazer para melhorar as relações com suas sociedades é moderar seu ponto de vista em relação aos muçulmanos e respeitar o Islã.

Offline Pasteur

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #263 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:08:04 »
O que mais os muçulmanos admiram no Ocidente é a sua democracia e tecnologia e o que menos admira é a decadência moral e dos valores tradicionais.

A maioria dos entrevistados não querem que os líderes religiosos tenham papel direto na elaboração de uma Constituição, ainda favorecem a lei religiosa como fonte de legislação.

A política dos EUA sobre a democracia no Oriente Médio não se encaixam com os sentimentos de grandes maiorias dos inquiridos que dizem que admiram as liberdades políticas do Ocidente e eles valorizam e desejam uma maior auto-determinação.

Offline Pasteur

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #264 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:12:39 »
Crucial para a luta contra o terrorismo global é a capacidade de mover-se além pressupostos e estereótipos para formar parcerias que transcendem um "nós" e "eles" visão do mundo. Parceiros muçulmanos, governos mundiais, e todas as pessoas são fundamentais para essa capacidade. E, no entanto, enquanto os muçulmanos e não-muçulmanos hoje estão preocupados com fanatismo e do terrorismo, eles também se sentem sob cerco.

Offline Sergiomgbr

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #265 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:15:18 »
Pergunta epifânica ao tópico,

Pasteur estará tentando "pasteurizar" o Islã???
« Última modificação: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:17:51 por Sergiomgbr »
Até onde eu sei eu não sei.

Offline Moro

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #266 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:16:28 »
...
Os dados da PEW são reais , inclusive o livro até usa algumas pesquisas PEW, só que a metodologia Gallup é melhor e não há má intenção como o da PEW achar que quem apoia o hudud é candidato a terrorista. O Gallup não cita o hudud porque este faz parte da Sharia (não tem nada a ver apoio hudud com apoio a terroristas).

Onde a PEW faz essa relação??

O Hudud é importante sim..

O que disse sobre o Gallup se encaixa bem nessa crítica à pesquisa
Citar
Book Review
Who Speaks for Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think
by John L. Esposito & Dalia Mogahed

Authors:
Who Speaks for Islam? is a book co-authored by two prominent scholars within Muslim studies. Dr. John L. Esposito identifies himself as a Roman Catholic in his personal life, yet in the academic realm he is a leading expert on the Muslim world. Esposito is a prolific author of over 35 books including What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam and Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam. His co-author Dalia Mogahed is a senior analyst and executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. Mogahed has led the analysis of Gallup’s unprecedented study of more than 1 billion Muslims worldwide. In fact, the book under review is primarily based on this very Gallup’s World Poll, which took place between 2001 and 2007 with more than 35 nations that are predominately Muslim. They claim that their research represents more than 90% of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims.

Audience & Purpose:
Their implied audience seems to be the American population. Their main purpose is to challenge American presuppositions about Muslims in a post-9/11 culture. In a word, they aim to dismantle the common Islamophobia in the West. . They hope to show that “the conflict between the Muslim and Western communities is far from inevitable” (p. xi). In many respects they are trying to present a palatable vision of Islam as a whole. Their stated means of accomplishing this persuasive end is, “Let the data lead the discourse” (xv). Hence the title that suggests this book presents the logical conclusions of the raw data from the Gallup’s World Poll. Listen to their description of the book, “The concept of this book is simple: With these questions in hand, we let the statistical evidence- the voices of a billion Muslims, not individual “experts” or “extremists”- dictate the answers” (xi). Noble as it is, however, is such a task even possible and if so have they achieved the presentation of brute facts?

There are no brute facts, only interpreted ones:
I was very impressed with the introduction of this book and the methodology that the authors claimed to use for the construction of it. For the most part the book provides persuasive research that illuminates what many Muslims in the world actually think. For example, the statistics reveal that many Muslims are not opposed to democracy per se as some might think. However, most support some kind of civil legislation based on Muslim Sharia law, which is slightly troubling (I would liken this to the Christian minority who are in favor of theonomy). Other interesting facts they raise are: “The majority of respondents in predominantly Muslim countries condemn the events of Sept. 11, 2001,” and “the minority (7%) who condone the attacks and view the United States unfavorably are no more religious than the general population” (p. 98-99). With statistics like these they conclude that diagnosing terrorism as a symptom, and Islam the root problem is a straw man and an ad hominen. They rather suggest, by means of statistics from the polls, that the main cause of terrorism is political not religious. They also strive to show how Muslim women find no inherent problems with Islam as a religion, yet the majority does long for more rights such as voting, driving cars, and employment.
For these findings and others, this book is quite valuable. However, after careful analysis I became skeptical of the research process and the presentation of the results. Of course, as Cornelius Van Til says, there are no brute facts, only interpreted ones. Therefore, as soon as the authors claimed to provide unadulterated facts to allow the Muslims to speak themselves, I was naturally skeptical. The authors had the goal of presenting a sympathetic and palatable view of Islam. They wanted to serve Islam on a silver platter to America and for good reasons. The global tension between Islamic nations and the West is not desirable by any. Yet, with such strong presuppositions, it is inevitable that the coauthors have skewed the “facts” to one degree or another. In the following section I will raise some suspicious occurrences in the book.

“Fishy” Facts:
Appendix A helpfully provides the Methodological Design and Sampling of the Gallup Poll used as the basis for this book. One of the key aspects of poll survey philosophy is listed as “The sample represents all parts of each country*, including all rural areas.” A footnote qualifies this statement with three exceptions to this rule for the survey. The first of these is the following: “Areas that threaten the safety of interviewing staff are excluded.” It’s impossible to know how much this exception affected the results of the survey. However, considering the fact that one of the major questions asked throughout the survey was regarding Islam and its connection to violence, it is feasible to assume that this exception good have significantly altered findings.
Likewise, local officials in surveyed countries requested the adjustment of questions regarding terrorism. “In Saudi Arabia, a country crucial to the study because of its status as the spiritual center of the Muslim world, officials were especially resistant, insisting that key questions be changed or dropped.”
Another fishy fact presented in the section on “What Do Women Want?” the coauthors show how a German man dedicated to fighting female genital mutilation that affects 100 million to 140 million girls has argued that the practice violates Islamic principles, not one caused by Islam (p 117). However, the case seems to be one of a divided kingdom. That is, this individual and others is pitting Islamic Sharia law against derived Islamic principles. This one of many cases throughout the book that employs the opinion of an individual to present a palatable view of Islam, as opposed to the stated methodology of letting the Gallup Poll statistics do the talking.
Similarly, I found that on a few occasions the statistics were selective of which countries that they pooled the survey from. This seems unprofessional, especially since I had to look at the endnotes to figure this out.
Most significantly on page 19 the authors attempt to justify verses in the Quran that call for violence against infidels, yet their efforts fall desperately short. They claim that such verses are not read in context; however the condition for violence they provide is lack of submission. Therefore, far from dismissing violence the Quran permits it in all cases except a person “repent and… agree to submit” (Quran 9:5, 29).

Conclusion:
In the end this book provides valuable insights into the Muslim world yet the results at times are suspect to erroneous conclusions and interpretations. They have successfully presented a palatable view of Islam as a religion and I’m sure that it would ease many fears of Americans. However, have they really let the statistics lead the discussion? Does this book give us the voice of Islam’s Silenced Majority? It is hard to say. Cleary this book is a collection of interpreted facts. Therefore, if one desires to pick of this book they should recognize this from the outset and be aware of the strong presuppositions of the authors who compiled the research and composed this book.





Quanto o Bahadur cita especialistas ele se esqueceu dos autores desse livro...

Que livro?

E porque esse especialista (é islâmico ou é daquele livro citado) teria mais credibilidade que os estudiosos islâmicos que citei?

« Última modificação: 15 de Março de 2015, 22:09:30 por Bahadur »
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

Offline Moro

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #267 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:19:12 »
Crucial para a luta contra o terrorismo global é a capacidade de mover-se além pressupostos e estereótipos para formar parcerias que transcendem um "nós" e "eles" visão do mundo. Parceiros muçulmanos, governos mundiais, e todas as pessoas são fundamentais para essa capacidade. E, no entanto, enquanto os muçulmanos e não-muçulmanos hoje estão preocupados com fanatismo e do terrorismo, eles também se sentem sob cerco.

Números, por favor. Como havia dito antes, podemos pegar trechos bons e ruins.. mas os números são importantes.

A pesquisa do Gallup é antiga e carece de números, veja a crítica que citei acima. 

Mas estou citando as partes que têm números.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #268 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:30:35 »
Maiorias na Jordânia, Egito, Irã, Paquistão, Turquia e Marrocos discordam que os Estados Unidos são sérios sobre a disseminação da democracia em sua região do mundo.

Por que a democracia está ausente em grande parte do mundo muçulmano?
A resposta a esta questão reside mais na história e na política do que na religião. Nós, no Ocidente tivemos séculos para se deslocar da monarquia para estados democráticos modernos, de reinos divinos-direito de seculares Estados-nação modernos, e vítimas de guerras revolucionárias e civis no processo. Em contraste, os governos do mundo muçulmano, criado após a Segunda Guerra Mundial, tem apenas algumas décadas de idade.


Maiorias substanciais em quase todas as nações pesquisadas (95% em Burkina Faso, 94% no Egito, 93% no Irã, e 90% na Indonésia) dizem que, se pudessem elaborar uma Constituição para um novo país, iriam garantir a liberdade de expressão, definido como "permitindo que todos os cidadãos de expressar a sua opinião sobre as questões políticas, sociais e econômicas do dia."

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #269 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:33:23 »
Se me recordo essa parte faz uma ressalva sobre a Sharia não?
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #270 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:54:54 »
Sim, a democracia deles são um misto de democracia nossa com algumas leis religiosas.

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #271 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 21:59:14 »
Exato.  Pense no seguinte cenário dos países majoritariamente islâmicos onde,  como bem mostrado na PEW,  4/6 clusters (justamente os maiores)  adotam a sharia e o hudud.

Agora pense que o congresso vai por em pauta "casamento dos gays"..  Sendo que a lei provém da Sharia. Qual a margem de manobra?  O que você colocou acima que os Estados islâmicos ainda não trilharam o caminho do ocidente é  real e um desses caminhos é a separação entre estado e religião 

Mas como fazer isso se a população deles demanda a sharia?  Esse é um dos pontos que os especialistas que citei pautam.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #272 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 22:10:37 »
...
Os dados da PEW são reais , inclusive o livro até usa algumas pesquisas PEW, só que a metodologia Gallup é melhor e não há má intenção como o da PEW achar que quem apoia o hudud é candidato a terrorista. O Gallup não cita o hudud porque este faz parte da Sharia (não tem nada a ver apoio hudud com apoio a terroristas).

Onde a PEW faz essa relação??

O Hudud é importante sim..

O que disse sobre o Gallup se encaixa bem nessa crítica à pesquisa
Citar
Book Review
Who Speaks for Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think
by John L. Esposito & Dalia Mogahed

Authors:
Who Speaks for Islam? is a book co-authored by two prominent scholars within Muslim studies. Dr. John L. Esposito identifies himself as a Roman Catholic in his personal life, yet in the academic realm he is a leading expert on the Muslim world. Esposito is a prolific author of over 35 books including What Everyone Needs to Know About Islam and Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam. His co-author Dalia Mogahed is a senior analyst and executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies. Mogahed has led the analysis of Gallup’s unprecedented study of more than 1 billion Muslims worldwide. In fact, the book under review is primarily based on this very Gallup’s World Poll, which took place between 2001 and 2007 with more than 35 nations that are predominately Muslim. They claim that their research represents more than 90% of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims.

Audience & Purpose:
Their implied audience seems to be the American population. Their main purpose is to challenge American presuppositions about Muslims in a post-9/11 culture. In a word, they aim to dismantle the common Islamophobia in the West. . They hope to show that “the conflict between the Muslim and Western communities is far from inevitable” (p. xi). In many respects they are trying to present a palatable vision of Islam as a whole. Their stated means of accomplishing this persuasive end is, “Let the data lead the discourse” (xv). Hence the title that suggests this book presents the logical conclusions of the raw data from the Gallup’s World Poll. Listen to their description of the book, “The concept of this book is simple: With these questions in hand, we let the statistical evidence- the voices of a billion Muslims, not individual “experts” or “extremists”- dictate the answers” (xi). Noble as it is, however, is such a task even possible and if so have they achieved the presentation of brute facts?

There are no brute facts, only interpreted ones:
I was very impressed with the introduction of this book and the methodology that the authors claimed to use for the construction of it. For the most part the book provides persuasive research that illuminates what many Muslims in the world actually think. For example, the statistics reveal that many Muslims are not opposed to democracy per se as some might think. However, most support some kind of civil legislation based on Muslim Sharia law, which is slightly troubling (I would liken this to the Christian minority who are in favor of theonomy). Other interesting facts they raise are: “The majority of respondents in predominantly Muslim countries condemn the events of Sept. 11, 2001,” and “the minority (7%) who condone the attacks and view the United States unfavorably are no more religious than the general population” (p. 98-99). With statistics like these they conclude that diagnosing terrorism as a symptom, and Islam the root problem is a straw man and an ad hominen. They rather suggest, by means of statistics from the polls, that the main cause of terrorism is political not religious. They also strive to show how Muslim women find no inherent problems with Islam as a religion, yet the majority does long for more rights such as voting, driving cars, and employment.
For these findings and others, this book is quite valuable. However, after careful analysis I became skeptical of the research process and the presentation of the results. Of course, as Cornelius Van Til says, there are no brute facts, only interpreted ones. Therefore, as soon as the authors claimed to provide unadulterated facts to allow the Muslims to speak themselves, I was naturally skeptical. The authors had the goal of presenting a sympathetic and palatable view of Islam. They wanted to serve Islam on a silver platter to America and for good reasons. The global tension between Islamic nations and the West is not desirable by any. Yet, with such strong presuppositions, it is inevitable that the coauthors have skewed the “facts” to one degree or another. In the following section I will raise some suspicious occurrences in the book.

“Fishy” Facts:
Appendix A helpfully provides the Methodological Design and Sampling of the Gallup Poll used as the basis for this book. One of the key aspects of poll survey philosophy is listed as “The sample represents all parts of each country*, including all rural areas.” A footnote qualifies this statement with three exceptions to this rule for the survey. The first of these is the following: “Areas that threaten the safety of interviewing staff are excluded.” It’s impossible to know how much this exception affected the results of the survey. However, considering the fact that one of the major questions asked throughout the survey was regarding Islam and its connection to violence, it is feasible to assume that this exception good have significantly altered findings.
Likewise, local officials in surveyed countries requested the adjustment of questions regarding terrorism. “In Saudi Arabia, a country crucial to the study because of its status as the spiritual center of the Muslim world, officials were especially resistant, insisting that key questions be changed or dropped.”
Another fishy fact presented in the section on “What Do Women Want?” the coauthors show how a German man dedicated to fighting female genital mutilation that affects 100 million to 140 million girls has argued that the practice violates Islamic principles, not one caused by Islam (p 117). However, the case seems to be one of a divided kingdom. That is, this individual and others is pitting Islamic Sharia law against derived Islamic principles. This one of many cases throughout the book that employs the opinion of an individual to present a palatable view of Islam, as opposed to the stated methodology of letting the Gallup Poll statistics do the talking.
Similarly, I found that on a few occasions the statistics were selective of which countries that they pooled the survey from. This seems unprofessional, especially since I had to look at the endnotes to figure this out.
Most significantly on page 19 the authors attempt to justify verses in the Quran that call for violence against infidels, yet their efforts fall desperately short. They claim that such verses are not read in context; however the condition for violence they provide is lack of submission. Therefore, far from dismissing violence the Quran permits it in all cases except a person “repent and… agree to submit” (Quran 9:5, 29).

Conclusion:
In the end this book provides valuable insights into the Muslim world yet the results at times are suspect to erroneous conclusions and interpretations. They have successfully presented a palatable view of Islam as a religion and I’m sure that it would ease many fears of Americans. However, have they really let the statistics lead the discussion? Does this book give us the voice of Islam’s Silenced Majority? It is hard to say. Cleary this book is a collection of interpreted facts. Therefore, if one desires to pick of this book they should recognize this from the outset and be aware of the strong presuppositions of the authors who compiled the research and composed this book.





Quanto o Bahadur cita especialistas ele se esqueceu dos autores desse livro...

Que livro?

E porque esse especialista (é islâmico ou é daquele livro citado) teria mais credibilidade que os estudiosos islâmicos que citei?

"O hudud é importante sim", isso é argumento?

O livro é o "Who Speaks For Islam", ué...

A Dalia Mogahed é islâmica sim e já foi assessora do presidente Obama.

E essa crítica aí ao Gallup foi bem ridícula. A PEW não foi à China e à Índia, lembra? Gallup sim. E essa crítica fala de mutilação genital feminina que não tem nada, absolutamente nada a ver com Islã. Arruma outra crítica que essa foi fraquíssima.

É Bahadur, os seus argumentos estão seriamente comprometidos...e você rebateu pouquíssima coisa.

Alô moderação, fique de olho pra ver se alguém está fugindo de rebater ou trollando, por favor.


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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #273 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 22:15:21 »
Exato.  Pense no seguinte cenário dos países majoritariamente islâmicos onde,  como bem mostrado na PEW,  4/6 clusters (justamente os maiores)  adotam a sharia e o hudud.

Agora pense que o congresso vai por em pauta "casamento dos gays"..  Sendo que a lei provém da Sharia. Qual a margem de manobra?  O que você colocou acima que os Estados islâmicos ainda não trilharam o caminho do ocidente é  real e um desses caminhos é a separação entre estado e religião 

Mas como fazer isso se a população deles demanda a sharia?  Esse é um dos pontos que os especialistas que citei pautam.

Se a  eles não separarem estado de religião a democracia assim será incompleta. Mas o ponto é terrorismo. Nada a ver terrorismo com Sharia/hudud.

Offline Moro

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Re:Guerra cultural: O Islam como um instrumento contra o mundo civilizado
« Resposta #274 Online: 15 de Março de 2015, 22:18:19 »
De novo não é o que as informações dizem nem os especialistas.  Mas você não vai arredar o pé. É uma crença sua.
“If an ideology is peaceful, we will see its extremists and literalists as the most peaceful people on earth, that's called common sense.”

Faisal Saeed Al Mutar


"To claim that someone is not motivated by what they say is motivating them, means you know what motivates them better than they do."

Peter Boghossian

Sacred cows make the best hamburgers

I'm not convinced that faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers."  --William Gascoyne

 

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